Transcription with timestamps of the panel discussion at the event «Sudan archives and Nubiology in times of war» 8th of September 2023, at Bergen Global. Transcription by Katharina A. Langerud.
Panelists:
1. Cornelia Kleinitz, Research Associate for sub-Saharan Africa at the Commission for Archaeology of Non-European Cultures (KAAK) of the German Archaeological Institute, Guest researcher at Humboldt University, Co-Director of the Humboldt University Archaeological Mission to Musawwarat es-Sufra, and Curator of the Sudan Archaeological Collection and Archive at Humboldt University, Berlin.
2. Sami El Amin, director of antiquities of Sudan’s Northern Province, responsible for the National Corporation for Antiquities and Museums archive.
3. Artur Obłuski, professor at Warsaw University, president of the International Society for Nubian Studies, director of the Polish Centre of Mediterranean Archaeology.
4. Mohamed Farouq Abdelrahman Ali, Chief Executive Officer of the American Sudanese Archaeological Research Center, Okwui Enewzor postdoctoral fellow at the Africa Institute in Sharjah, UAE.
5. Henriette Hafsaas, head of research, Volda University College.
Chair: Alexandros Tsakos, senior academic librarian, University of Bergen..
Timestamps
[00:00:00] Introduction by Alexandros Tsakos
[00:12:06] Archival material and digital solutions: Creating a heritage registry for the Sudan by Sami Elamin
[00:25:58] Transition to next topic
[00:27:17] History of archival and archaeological work by Cornelia Kleinitz
[00:40:31] Transition to next topic
[00:42:10] Changing the way archaeology is done by Artur Obluski
[00:50:50] Transition to next topic
[00:52:24] Open science: accessibility to archival by Henriette Hafsaas
[57:00] Transition to next topic
[00:58:29] Collecting archival material from the United States by Mohammed Faroug
[01:05:09] Discussion about open access
[01:06:22] Cornelia Kleinitz’ input
[01:09:10] Sami Elamin’s input
[01:13:00] Mohammed Faroug’s input
[01:15:55] Artur Obluski’s input
[01:17:07] Henriette Hafsaas
[01:18:31] Impacts of war: archaeological sites and museums
[00:00:00] Introduction by Alexandros Tsakos
[00:00:00] Alexandros Tsakos
It's a great pleasure to … be here with those few, but of the highest quality among the people interested in Sudan in our university, that I can … present five friends and colleagues from the field, primarily of Nubian studies, which is part of what other people would call Sudan archaeology, and which definitely fits into the frame of Sudan studies. And Sudan studies are of extreme importance, especially this year at the University of Bergen, because we are celebrating 60 years since the beginning of the collaboration with the University of Khartoum, 60 years since the first fieldwork by the social anthropologist Fredrik Barth, took place in Darfur.
These field activities, University collaboration and research have had many results, among which is the collection at the University of Bergen of both primary sources, secondary literature, field notes, images, and archaeological objects from all these 60 years of collaboration. The University of Bergen Library has the honor of being the stakeholder of most parts of these collections, but there are also objects in the museum, and there is definitely more to be collected from people who have worked on the field and who have kept the material at home, in their office or in their institution.
The story of the Sudan Collection in Bergen is important this year, even more so, because it consists of … primarily of manuscripts that are written in Arabic script, either in Arabic language or in Darfurian language written in Arabic. And it constitutes a great challenge for the librarians because the level of knowledge of these languages is quite low among my colleagues, so it is a chance that we had, that in the last years, the new ambassador of Norway and Sudan, Endre Stiansen, has an inside knowledge of these manuscripts, of these archives. He's worked on them for his PhD thesis. And I want to believe that this was one of the reasons that, when the embassy decided to prolong the collaboration with the Christian Mickelsen Institute (and especially Liv Tønnessen), he insisted that the University of Bergen is also included.
Five clusters were created. The leader of one of them is with us today. Among these five clusters, one is focusing on history and in this cluster, we have decided that our collections will be activated among students, scholars and other visitors from Sudan. This project that manages all that is called the Sudan National Academic Collaboration (SNAC) and will be lasting for four years inshallah.
This year we would have had a jubilee series of events in Khartoum … where both the 60 years collaboration and SNAC, the abbreviation of this project, will be meeting with our colleagues and the actually most important people in the work that we are doing from here. But as you all know in April things changed in Sudan. And these changes have affected our plans, which is the least of the worries. These changes have made a question of the protection of cultural heritage one of the topics that could and should be discussed in the frame of war in Sudan, and in the end of the day a new situation has created … has given, so to say, an extra value, cultural value to the archives that, for example, the University of Bergen possesses.
So, in … with all that as a background, people that are working with the organization of the Jubilee events decided to organize seminars where we could gather individuals that would be able to talk about topics of relevance for the context that I just described, but always having in view the current situation in the country.
So, as organizer of this meeting and Moderator of the discussion, I need to thank both the Jubilee Committee and the Sudan Norway Academic Collaboration group and Bergen Global for making possible this event here. I understand that this is one of the many things that are happening today and in general in town. I understand that the media have turned their attention away from what's happening in Sudan and perhaps when it comes to issues of war, we are focusing on the fact that right now the entire Sahel is in a crisis of coup d'etats. Both because this was planned, and I believe that the friends and colleagues that have said yes to participate can give us insights of unique value for what's happening in Sudan, and last but not least, because the point of us hawagias, from outside, speaking and commenting about what's happening in the country has as a major outcome the fact that when our voices are heard to those who still remain in the country … get courage and continue their presence there and all the efforts possible to regain a life, and to maintain a sort of control or overview over the cultural heritage that we will be talking about.
So, it's undoubtedly an honor and a pleasure to have among the participants today, Sami Elamin, a dearest friend and colleague from Sudan. Who is in Sudan. Who is among the very few people from the National Corporation of Antiquities and Museums that didn't flee the country, that stayed in Karima, and who is going in the course of our meeting to present to us the current situation in Shimaliya … in the northern province … and the importance of that can be measured by the fact that when I asked the Ambassador and his employees about the situation with the museums and the archaeological sites: what information do they get? The answer was “none, we don't know.” So, perhaps today if Internet allows us, Sami will give us some very useful insights.
But he's not the only important … VIP of our group. Right next to him sits my friend Artur Obluski, Professor at the University of Warsaw, the person who opened Nubian studies to the ERC funding, President of the International Society for Nubian Studies, President of the Kazimierz Michalowski foundation. Still, I think? President of the Polish Center of Mediterranean Archaeology. Last but not least, he’s the leader of the fieldwork in Old Dongola.
Another dear friend, also joining from afar. A friend who we've brought together in the field, with whom we have had collaborations also while in Bergen. He's Dr. Mohammed Faroug, Postdoctoral researcher at Sharja.
And another person with various sorts of importance in my life, nowadays a friend and colleague, is Henriette Hafsaas. Who is Head of research at the University College of Volda, but who has also been extremely active, both in the field and in research, here in Bergen, and who possesses the last PhD on Sudan archaeology from our university.
And last but not least, from Berlin came another dear friend and colleague, and also a member of my PhD committee, Cornelia Kleinitz, who is now working at the German Archaeological Institute, she's still affiliated with Humboldt, she is leading the excavations at Musawwarat es-Sufra, and she is responsible for the archive at Humboldt [University].
Now “archives” is going to be the first topic of the day and among the other things that Sam is doing from Sudan, in Sudan, both in the past and the present and shall in the future, is to be responsible for the archive.
So, without further ado. I would invite Sami to make the first intervention of the day by talking to us about the archive at NCAM, the current situation, and the plans for the future. Please, Sami.
[00:12:06] Archival material and digital solutions: Creating a heritage registry for the Sudan by Sami Elamin
Sami Elamin
Shukran ya muhtaram, thank you very much for the nice words and the nice introduction, Alexandros, hi everyone. I'm so glad to see all of you and much greetings from Jebel Barkal and this is behind me – I'm in the Information Center of Barkal now.
So am I allowed to … share my screen?
Alexandros Tsakos
Yes, I believe you are.
Sami Elamin
OK, some of you saw this presentation or some slides before. In terms of dealing with archival material and the digital solutions for the Sudanese heritage, which represented as a governmental institute by NCAM (National Cooperation for Antiquities and Museum).
So, the idea and the launching of this project started back in 2014. I'm just going to give a brief historical background. On the basis of the archival material the architect, Friedrich Hinkel, left back in Berlin at his house after his death. His family donated a large number of archival material - digital and analog archive - to the German Institute of Archaeology. And from 2015, there was a very … successful, fruitful collaboration between NCAM and DAI, under the fund of Qatar Foundation, by that time, at the beginning, the first two years.
So, the idea was first to digitalize all the archival material from Hinkel, and to create a magazine for this archive at NCAM. Because there were so many times at NCAM before, some of the colleagues were trying to establish an archive department, and database, but due to so many reasons it wasn't continued and since 2015 we were able, together with our German friends, to create this registry unit.
And … the idea was to collect all the analog archive we have at NCAM (it was scattered here and there, in the corners, under the tables, in so many places) … and … to create, or to come out with digital solutions, to digitize this archival material first of all, and then, the second part of the project, is to establish a site registry, or a heritage registry for the Sudanese antiquities in general.
So, we were working in both sites with our … with our German colleagues, and other partners as well, recently. The project of Sudan Memory, one of the projects, was funded by British Council, Qatar Foundation, and the German Institute of Archaeology, of course as I said.
The beginning of the project was in 2015, as I said, I was nominated from NCAM to be the vocal person or the vocal point, with our German colleague to start this database and archive. Before, as you know, I was just an archaeologist, a digger, and I had no idea about dealing or working with archival material. I received a lot of practice in Berlin from our colleague, together with some colleagues from NCAM. My friend, Mortada Bushara, was with me in Berlin for two months and we were trying to have a good idea about dealing with archival analog material, different types of archival material.
Then, in 2017, there was a summer school for three weeks. Eight members of NCAM, inspectors and curators, were invited to Berlin for an intensive training session by the German Institute of Archaeology on also how to deal with archival materials and so.
Then, the second part of the work was in Sudan, at NCAM. So, there was four or five different stages. We came to NCAM and we invited our German colleagues, the expert, an archivist and an IT specialist as well. I would really say a lot of thanks to all of them.
So, the challenge was, as I said, there was no source of documentation for the archival material at NCAM before for this project. So, first we were trying to find where are these archival materials, exactly. As I said, we were searching everywhere; in the closed offices, in the closed cupboards, and we were asking the old people from NCAM about the archival material.
Then we started to clean the material. I'm talking about huge, huge, huge number of archival material.
Then classifying the archival material into four different categories, or five different categories, because there was administrative archival material, there was archaeology and fieldwork archival material as well, and there was also museum archival material, and so many types and materials. We’re talking about paper, talking about slides, different types of photographs (printed, negatives, and black and white, colored).
Then the last stage was to register this material, each type according to the specific needs of the registration.
This is one of the photos. By accident we opened one of the containers in the courtyard of NCAM and we found a lot of archival material that was just back at the end of the container. So, the left … the left side of the slide shows some photographs that our colleague, German colleague and Sudanese colleague, are trying to recognize what are these papers and trying to classify them.
This is the process of the classification.
So, in general, the archival material we have at NCAM, are divided into two kinds: we have archaeological material, and the archaeological material are different in types, because there are some photographs, there are some papers, there are some object registry, there are huge number of maps and plans, and so, it's also digital and analog as well. I'm talking about thousands of things. The other part of the archival material is historical, and it is basically during the British Egyptian colonization and the Mahdia … the Mahdia … the Mahdia period in Sudan as well.
So, we … we … by that time, we took the permission from Dr. Abdelrahman, the Former Director of NCAM, and he gave us the permission to use one of the large offices. We bought cupboards, office furniture and different types of packing materials we need.
And here, how it looks in the first day of organization.
Then recently we had a good partnership with Sudan Memory Project, as I said before. They really support the archive unit with very important different types of documents, different types of devices, like different types of scanners for different types of material. A very good workstation, photography tools.
So, as the first part we registered 1007 files and documents; maps and plans: 1572; photographic material: 7489. So, this is still a part of the material process. There is still a lot of material needed to be processed, if they are still existing in the NCAM – hopefully – because of the space and the financial issues, we couldn't manage to do everything at the same time. So, we finished the registration of the objects.
And here, our colleagues are during the digitalization process for the different types of material.
These are some samples or examples of the digitized material.
So, we received the server from the German Institute of Archaeology. Capacity of more than 100 terabytes. The plan was that there should be a backup copy of the data that will be hosted by Sudan Telecommunication Network. And the last objective was to collect the data from all the archaeological missions working in Sudan, just to keep track on their work on the sites and the updates from the sites. Because we were focusing in the last four years on the Heritage Registry and we have … we have … together with our German colleague we designed the specific database, a container for the Sudanese sites. It's part of the iDAI.field, the … the design of the German Institute of Archaeology. But with the help of our colleague, Conny, Pawel Wolf, and other colleagues, and our IT specialist, Mohammed Ahmed Abas. Now we are trying to … to make it suitable to our administrative purposes, as well.
I would say there is a lot to say about the archival work in Sudan at the beginning of the digitalization on the site registry, because I still have to talk about the situation of the sites. I think for now this will put people at the same level of understanding of what we did.
So, the … unfortunately, all this data was at NCAM. And we have backup for most of the work that we did, especially the digitalization, but the recent work we did is not backed up (on the server). We hope the Rapid Support Forces (RSF) didn't reach this place or touch anything, because there is very valuable archival material there. Analog data.
For example, among the archival material we found at NCAM, we found object registry of … what’s his name? I forgot his name. Reisner, George Reisner, from his excavations in Nuri, and in Barkal as well. Like, a large number of papers piled in … in carton boxes and other things from the Polish expedition, or the participation of the Polish during the Salvage Project of Aswan Dam, as well. Especially the copy of Faras Cathedral … These are just examples of what we have there. And of course, some recent work done by some Sudanese archaeologists, as well.
This is for the archive. Thanks for listening.
Shall I directly continue into the situation, Alexandros? Or …
[00:25:58] Transition to next topic
Alexandros Tsakos
No, let us stay for a while with the archives, Sami. Thank you very much for this first presentation. If you would like to un-share your screen now?
Well, as I said initially, the importance of archives and the work done, especially in terms of digitalization, has a tremendous significance under the present-day situation. How does one safeguard this material, and provide server space, and the technical know-how? Hoping that upon the return of a more stabilized Khartoum-situation, the archive will still be there is one of the things that we can discuss ASAP but … It's the most normal thing to give the word to you, Conny, and ask how are things in Berlin and how do you see this story of the collaboration with the NCAM archive, either with Sami or with the other colleagues. How did that happen and where is it leading to?
[00:27:17] History of archival and archaeological work by Cornelia Kleinitz
Cornelia Kleinitz
I think when Sami was speaking, I was thinking how much crossover there is in terms of institutions and in terms of people also being active in the field.
Sami, are you still there?
Sami Elamin
Yes. I’m just-
Cornelia Kleinitz
Yeah, yes. You switched off your camera because I can't see you. It's OK, because I'm going to be talking to you a little bit as well. You're hiding (laughs).
Because Berlin comes up, and why is Berlin this place where we have these different archives? So, the one that Sami just talked about is the Hinkel Archive at the German Archaeological Institute, which was the legacy of the architect Friedrich Hinkel, who'd been active in Sudan for many, many decades. He is one of the big figures in terms of Sudan Archaeology, and site registration, and systematization, and so on.
But to go back a little bit in time we have another archive in Berlin which is the archive I was curating at Humboldt University. And at Humboldt University we had the first focus on the archaeology of Sudan and that started in 1957, when the then Professor, Fritz Hintze (so, we have Friedrich Hinkel and we have Fritz Hintze, they’re not the same person. I’m probably going to mix up the names, but they are two different people). Anyway, Fritz Hintze was the Professor for Egyptology at Humboldt University, and he was able to travel to Egypt and Sudan for the first time in 1957. And the archive basically, at Humboldt University, starts then. It's an institutional memory, in a way, and also of course includes all the documentation, the administration of all the work that started at that point. It's about 65 years now that it covers.
They went to Sudan for the first time… they started working in the field in 1958 with the Butana Expedition and then started the project in Musawwarat es-Sufra in 1960. There were 10 years of excavations and cultural heritage preservation work. The Apedemak temple was rebuilt at the time.
Then there was a hiatus, which had to do with politics, because this project was an East German project – and why would East Germany actually fund, having been marginalized in some ways internationally? And not having very much… How do you say? No hard currency. So why would they invest in working in Sudan?
So, one thing was, of course, the academic interest in working in Sudan. Hintze had gone for the first time. He went to Egypt, that was OK. He went to Sudan, it was amazing. So, he's like, “I would love to work here” and people made it easy for him and for Humboldt University to start working there. And this work was interesting for East Germany, because of cultural diplomacy, in a way. Yeah? This was a potential African brother country under the framework of people's friendship (Völkerfreundschaft). So they hoped to establish East German research on African pasts internationally also, which they succeeded in doing, actually.
So one thing that we mustn’t forget with these institutional archives is the motivation. Why do people start working in areas like Sudan? So, there's that view of “what are we doing there?” The East German team actually reflected on what they were doing there, and who for. There was that whole idea of having this new nation state, the young Republic of the Sudan, it had just been like two years old at the time when they started working there. That they were going to contribute to this new nation, to provide information on its past, so that it could be included in a new identity for the nation of Sudan.
And of course, there's lots of us talking about wars and things. So, we have this political moment and these political moments also, in which the work was set in East Germany: Trying to get the money, trying to get the authorizations, trying to get the people to be allowed to go. But we also have the situation that they observe in Sudan, apart from the archaeology.
So, the archaeology obviously is being done. It's very successful, but we also have a lot of information on all the context. So that’s … that makes up this archive. Which again is quite important for the institution, as a part of the institutional identity, at Humboldt University. But also, is a historical moment, it's important for the history of science, and so on.
And as we found now, in the last project we've done at Musawwarat – because now I've been for a couple of years leading the project – is that this archive doesn't just reflect a general historical situation in Sudan, but also a situation of the local community, because these people have been working with the archaeologists since 1960. Now we're working with the children and grandchildren of those people working with us then, and there are moments from their lives that are being recorded in the diaries, in the photographs, in the films – 8-millimeter films – and things like that. And the local community has asked us to please bring those parts of the archives that reflect the lives of their fathers and grandfathers back to the community and give it to them as part of their local history.
And these people would have come to Berlin now in September, if the war hadn't happened. We got funding to bring members of the local community to work in the archive in Berlin, and to select those parts of the archive that reflect their history.
What we've done locally –also on the subject of how archives change, how the content changes, of the data we are creating – is that we have been researching and doing contemporary archaeology with the local workmen. We have basically been looking at their material culture, as more or less mobile pastoralists, and have been researching that as kind of counter-mapping the archaeological site from the perspective of the workers, of the local people, and so on.
So, kind of switching around these … Because that's something that’s the potential of the archives. That we have something that preserves a lot of information, but that's important for various ways, because also we don't publish a lot of the archaeological data that we document at the time. So, it's sitting there and if we're lucky, we're actually managing to get back to it at some point and publish it, and make it available, and so on.
Digitization is one thing, but then still there is a lot of information being lost, context information. But then we also have the potential to question the archive, to activate the archive in a very different way, and we're finding that now. So, I’m … Because we're talking about needing to go back to legacy data and try to publish these things, but we can also open these archives in ways we hadn't really thought about or hadn't thought possible. And in the way, we are … I think, archaeology is progressing all the time, and we're working differently and we’re seeing ourselves differently, in the context in which we're working in … in partnerships that are different now from what they were before. Yeah? We question ourselves a lot. So, we are benefiting, I think all of us are benefiting from the co-creation of knowledge that it actually is.
Archaeology in these contexts in which we are moving is a specific social space of intercultural communication, as well. For Musawwarat, there's even a “dig language” that developed over the years with some German words and Arabic words and something that … that where we, as … as a team, communicate and understand each other in ways that are very … very specific.
But I'm talking about a university collection, a university archive. So, it's not like at the German Archaeological Institute, where it's an institutional archive that's very formalized – and that was a beautiful project that Sami talked about of an archive that was already, Hinkel’s archive – that was already very well organized, then to digitize it, and then to bring it online. That was amazing work.
At Humboldt, it was also very well organized the archive, but over time … and that's the drawback having it at an institution which depends on people, on funding, on the priorities at the time that an institute has or doesn't have at some point anymore. Yeah? So, you may be lucky that for some time, you've got people who are really into working with the archives and the collection – because we have an archive and actually a collection of objects that came through a finds division in the 1960s as a teaching collection mainly – but … So, you're a bit dependent on research plans and on political situations in terms of budgets and things like that, so that, it’s a bit … what happens to the archive is not prescribed. We've tried to give it – since 2016 – a very strict corset in a way, in terms of the collections … how do you say … collections rules and things like that, to have access organized, to have it … give it more of a proper user-structure than was done before. So, actually quite a few materials disappeared. We found archival materials at some kind … under some roof in not so ideal conditions. It's not that our archive has been in perfect condition all the time, no. We have been over time, over the decades, re-excavating our archive, working on it, and then that stopped for whatever reasons. Re-excavating the archive, trying to work with it again, trying to find things again that people had taken home, and so on.
So, I think institutionalizing these archives is a very important point, but it needs people. It needs people who are dedicated for those archives. My position at Humboldt was made permanent on the basis of being the curator of the … of the … of the collection and the archive at some point, because the university realized that they needed a, kind of, memory to be connected with that and some skills to be connected with that, that couldn't be changed every two or three years, that it was something that deserved people dedicated to it. But that's an exceptional situation. Usually, my level positions are not permanent. Yeah?
So, there are a lot of contingencies that the archives are – wherever they are, in a way – subject to. But digitization is a very important point and we managed to get funding for that too, because that was the theme of the time and we managed to go in there, we managed to get funding, we managed to rope in students, we managed to build a whole … teach courses, involve students, involve universities. There was a big push for university collections in Berlin, so that also was a context that we really benefited from for the Sudan Archives. We got funding for new furniture, for new everything. But that was a moment in time we could seize and we're in a very good position now for this archive to be used, but now we are losing other people who could have used the archive who cannot now, for obvious reasons, come and … and use it.
The point was that digitization would allow people wherever they are, and especially also in Sudan, if they can't come to Germany, but would allow the people in Sudan also to use these archival materials which we have to do. And then, with the collaboration between the German Archaeological Institute, and Humboldt University, and NCAM, then those data should go into a general NCAM archive. So that would be the idea, anyway, that the NCAM archive should be the “mother archive” of all of these.
And then you have these different institutional archives coming in with their very individual characteristics. You see the people over time who have been shaping that research and whose thoughts we see. And we're also pulling out the women who wrote diaries, who were helping their husbands to do the archaeological work, you know? So, there are a lot of voices that are coming out now that are allowing us to get very different or a much fuller view of archaeological practice and context of archaeology in Sudan.
And I think that’s … that I still … I'm very enthusiastic about the archive. I am on leave now, so I'm not now responsible for the archive, because … being responsible for the archive did not allow me to do any research. Now I have a research position and now from outside I'm working on the archive, which is also an irony in the way our jobs are structured. But so, you know, we have to find ways of protecting these archives, making them accessible and then also activating these archives. Working on these archives in as heterogeneous research groups as we can get. So, I think that's what I wanted to say.
[00:40:31] Transition to next topic
Alexandros Tsakos
Thank you. Thank you for this journey from the past to the present, and to the future. As you mentioned, Nubiology, especially in the form of archaeology, has been quite a lot characterized by salvage campaigns that created masses of data that still remain unpublished, that have partially been archived, for example, in the Aswan Museum. And these need a sort of coordination. There are institutions both in the university level involved. There are institutions in Sudan that are involved.
Nevertheless, there is also this need to find the technical means, the budgetary means. I don't know which hat you would like to put on, Artur, in trying to address this question. You could eventually speak changing the hats both in terms of leading an institution that can coordinate, by being someone who has managed to raise lots of money for your projects, and building up even more the fantastic Warsaw school, by linking these similar parts from the Socialist Times until today from … of Poland and Sudan relations. And of course, by telling us what are you doing with the archives that have been assembled by … what is it now? 60 years of official collaboration between the two countries in the two most important sites of medieval Nubia, for example? Please.
[00:42:10] Changing the way archaeology is done by Artur Obluski
Artur Obluski
Thank you very much, Alexandros. I didn't know that you could still read my mind, because when I prepared to this … to this panel, I thought that I can actually use 3 perspectives on archives, one as a researcher. As you remember, we are still working on some archival material from the … from the US. I think that this researcher’s perspective is the least important thing in our talk today.
As a manager of an institution that carried out a lot of … and carries out a lot of excavations: I think we need to start from an obvious and general statement that archaeology is still one of the remains of colonialism and we need .. and we are changing the way it is done, but still … still there is a lot of work to do, let's say it like this.
Why archaeology is one of the last remains of colonialism? … Maybe I can use a metaphor that was … that was presented to me by Khaled al-Anani in the previous Minister of Antiquities in Egypt. He said,
“Artur, look how archaeology is done. You are coming to our garden. You are picking up our vegetables. You are going back to your home. You cook a soup for you and you don't share it with us”
And I think this is the best way to kind-of present how archaeology is done and how it shouldn't be done. So, fortunately … I mean the majority of us foreigners are from northern countries, and we are going to the southern countries that, let's say are … are poorer countries. Fortunately, we can't take the objects to our countries anymore, but I think still archaeology is kind of intellectual robbery of countries of the South, if we don't share the results of our research, and if we don't do archaeology in a way that can benefit both scholars in the countries that we are working in, building capacity of the scholars, and if it doesn't benefit the local communities.
Because I can speak about my own experience of Polish excavations that, for 60 years, the only contact between the … the Polish expedition coming to Sudan and the local communities, it was hiring the workers and some ... The level of contact also depended on the personality of the head of the expedition. If it was one head that wanted to interact with local communities, he interacted or she … And if he was kind of more, let's say, introverted, he didn't. He didn't interact.
Coming back to the archives. I think that all the archives of foreign institutions … of excavations done in the past should be shared and available in Open Access. This is one thing; the other thing is that the archives is the only thing that lasts after us. You know, we are all researchers, and we know that we are not always … We don't always keep up with publishing what we research. Ok? If we don't publish, it's only the archives that last after us, and what not only researchers all over the world, but also what our host countries, and … for instance, in my case, NCAM, can get out of us.
So … So, I think that we should put a lot of emphasis on archival material, and I started to do it at PCMA. So, in the last couple of years we digitized several 100,000 photos, negatives, drawings, and so on and so on … We will put it all online, it will be available for free in Open Access. The same approach that I apply in my ERC grant: After we finish our grant next year, all material, all documentation from the project will be available … available online.
But … the thing that worries me a lot is the quality of archival material. And this is something that we, as ISNS and NCAM should work on to establish some kind of standards of documentation that is produced. Because you know … if I can compare 10 years of research … of Polish research at Old Dongola, the first ten years, there is as much documentation as we do now in a season, maybe. In terms of objects registry, in terms drawings, photography and so on and so on ...
Of course, we had some, let's say … These were different times, right? And we shouldn't compare it, but on the other hand, we should learn from that lesson. That we should do as much documentation, make it available and … I want to say something that won't be very popular in the community of Nubiologists. I think that NCAM should be ruthless towards us in terms of getting the documentation out of us. If we don't give back the documentation, you simply don't work then the next year, or in two years perspective. Because, Sami, otherwise you won't be able to get it. You know how it works. It is prolonged from year to year to year to year and then people forget. People change, people die, people go out of academia or whatever.
So, one maybe … one last thing that I want to say. It's not only about digitizing the archives, it's also about metadata that you associate with the archival material. Because digitalization, it will … it will preserve what we have in the archives, but we also want to make it useful for research. So, if you don't have metadata, it will be almost impossible to search and use the archives in a proper and an effective … an effective way.
[00:50:50] Transition to next topic
Alexandros Tsakos
Thank you, Artur. Thank you also for this last remark up. I began by speaking about the importance of the project here in Bergen that is going to enable us to put online material that, without the appropriate metadata of those who understand the content of these manuscripts, makes no sense. Without metadata, it's like you don't have an archive.
But, you know, we do talk about digitalization and understand that first of all it is NCAM’s role to be the coordinator with the technical or financial support from wherever this would come. But the type of archival material that we mainly talk about is in form of paper, and photo paper if you wish, notes and that stuff. But among Nubiologists, with such a focus on archaeology, one cannot take out the archives of the museums and the type of material that museums have the responsibility for, so, the archaeological objects.
And I know that Henriette, for example, has done work with this type of archival material. Both that that records the memory of archaeological digs and that is the actual content of the museums. What is your take on that, Henriette?
[00:52:24] Open science: accessibility to archival by Henriette Hafsaas
Henriette Hafsaas
Thank you and thank you for the perspectives already shared.
I have mainly worked with museum collections and, as already has been pointed to, it's very important that the knowledge stored in the museums is openly available.
In my time, some years back now, I travelled around to see the collections in many different museums. The objects and archives from excavations in Sudan are spread all over Europe and North America. And of course, you have very important collections in Khartoum. On Sai, we worked on the collection there, in all the different small museums along the Nile and of course also in Aswan in Egypt. It is very expensive for researchers to attract funding to travel around to all these places, especially, perhaps, if you are based in Sudan.
And this, I think is what is important for us, as researchers now to start thinking more about open science, and now I wear my head of research “hat”. But I think also it's very important when you work in the South, in Sudan, that the material that you are excavating is based in the country. Although, I think with these collections that are already around in Europe and Northern America, it's important to attract interest to Sudan studies and Nubiology, and to make it a broader field of research, than just being a national concern for Sudan. That this is open for more researchers. This is always, I think, positive because you bring different perspectives.
But I agree with what was said, that excavation without documentation is just robbery, and if the documentation is just kept for yourself, or for your team, it has also limited values. I totally agree that NCAM should have the documentation and that the missions working in Sudan should give it on a yearly basis to the NCAM.
Then, science should be open for all researchers. It is better if the data is openly available; that archives with metadata is openly available, and also of course, the publications, and this should be something we strive to. Then one should probably not just have it openly available somewhere, but that there should be for Sudan, some kind of entry point where you can access all these different archives, because even to orientate yourself among all of this is very difficult and takes a lot of time and energy for a researcher.
If you have easy access to the data and the collections, even as photographs, it's easier and better to use energy for going deeper into research matters, to ask new questions, etcetera. And of course, it will always be necessary to look for the materials itself and to come to the archives in order to find the things that you cannot know that you are looking for when you are just putting in search-words. This is still very important. So, I don't think the institutional archives will lose their importance if they are openly available, because sometimes you need to be just exposed to the material. Suddenly you see something that you hadn't thought of before, because you hadn't thought of this search-word … This I know for myself, because it has happened to me. So, I guess it also happens to others.
[57:00] Transition to next topic
Alexandros Tsakos
Definitely. Thank you very much. It's very important what you state about, even though you stated implicitly that the luxury and the privilege of being in … a researcher or student in the Nordic countries, being able to travel, to visit museums and archives. If I were living in Greece, it would have been impossible for me to do the same and I guess it has been a challenge also for someone like you, Mohammed Faroug, based in Sudan, but then getting the chance of moving to the United States of America. I would guess that this made the change also to the access of data that you obtained, perhaps also in the way you understood your own management of the data that you produced in your fieldworks, like the one we served together.
And … but what I forgot to mention, presenting your role as a Chief Executive officer of the Sudanese American Research Society (AmSARC) might also, and I'm very eager to hear, be linked with activities of collecting the archival material from the American activities in Sudan. What would be your comments?
Please unmute yourself, thank you.
[00:58:29] Collecting archival material from the United States by Mohammed Faroug
Mohammed Faroug
Ok. Thank you, Alex. Thank you for organizing this meeting. I feel like this is really giving me the energy that more people are concerned about what's going on in Sudan these days, especially about the cultural heritage of Sudan and how we safeguard the cultural heritage in Sudan in general. It's not only our concern here about archaeology, but it should include or call for other social and humanitarian disciplines as well. So, as a Sudanese archaeologist, I feel like I had a good opportunity to go to the United States, of course, and do my work there and collaborate with the different organizations there.
My personal work in Sudan together with, sometimes as a part of, or the head of the national archaeological missions in Sudan. We conducted archaeological work there with multinationals like the Greek community, and Alex represented that. In some cases, with the foreign missions, just as a member. From this experience, we have had the opportunity to access, see, and check many archaeological data and archives from these different missions, whether during the excavation, during the documentation, or to see the materials also stored in some of the local storages at the archaeological sites. And, from my own experience, I have conducted archaeological research at various sites in different parts of the Meroe region. And the method we use leads to the accumulation of a really significant amount of material from archaeological surveys and excavations obtained from Akad, from the area around Shendi, and also from the West Bank of the Nile and the east hinterland in the Butana and Karaba regions. In fact, NCAM has
I've been thinking and sharing my thoughts with some Sudanese colleagues and with the antiquities service, in particular, to share the archaeological data with other archaeologists and the local shareholders in particular. I've been reached by the public, and I sent some of my work to them. However, I would also like to have my data shared after I do the final publication and make it accessible to my colleagues and other researchers who work in Sudanese archaeology.
We occasionally bring this up in our talks and meetings because of this, particularly what Artur said about the metadata and how users access the data, for example. Of course, it is what we have to do if we submit this data to the Antiquity Service. I contact and discuss with Sudanese and foreign researchers requesting, for instance, the creation of a central database—based on the antiquity service or somewhere else—that would enable people to upload or submit their archaeological or archival data so that others could access it and conduct research. Accessing the database in this situation requires some regulations and codes of ethics.
One of my own observations about the archaeological work in Sudan, depending on my own experience in the antiquity service and other institutions. I found out that earlier European scholars, especially earlier generations, had their own work and materials published, but of course the remaining archives of their work have not been published. However, it's good that, for example, in Germany, Conny was talking about that; they have documented some of the earlier outcomes of archaeological works and probably have them available and accessible to other people, and also Artur was saying the same thing.
Unfortunately, some of the archaeologists who have passed away brought some archaeological materials to Khartoum for NCAM, but they're either misplaced or lost. We don't know where it is. I would be very happy to submit all the data I have to probably Sami; he will probably be in charge of the antiquity service... to submit my data and what I have in order to be safe somewhere else. If something happened and some other people or our scholars had access to and studied this archaeological data, that would be good. That's from what I see, in my own experience.
In the United States, they have archives. I have been to, for example, I think we have been together—me and you [Alexandros]—to UCLA. We have seen some of the archaeological material that is, of course, stored there and hasn’t been published or studied by scholars either. I think we have our support to do something about the archives abroad; however, this has to be carried out in coordination and/or collaboration with the antiquity service. We also would like to see NCAM and other institutions search for all these archives, document them, and make them accessible to research in order to publish this archaeological data and make it available to the public.
I also work with Stuart [Tyson Smith] in the north, in Tumbus. I do the settlement there, and we also have a lot of archaeological materials stored there; some are in NCAM and other materials are in the United States, and we are really worried about the ones in Sudan. Unfortunately, part of my archaeological documentation is still in Sudan.
We don't know what's going to happen in the future. We cannot anticipate when this conflict is going to end or when they are going to ceasefire and have peace in Sudan. So, this is going to be a big challenge for all archaeologists. I don't think it's only for me, but for all archaeologists. You don't know when you’re going to go back to Sudan and probably go over some of the materials or the archive if you have submitted it in the past.
[01:05:09] Discussion about open access
Alexandros Tsakos
Absolutely, Mohammed Faroug. And thank you for pointing this out, because I think that combining what you say in the previous comment by Artur, it would be perhaps interesting to consider that in the past we were saying that if you want to get your concession renewed or open up a new field; you need to publish your material. So, for example, I've been working in the Fourth Cataract region in the mid-2000s and now we are in 2023, so it's 20 years that have passed and it's just this year that the first volume came out from the Sudan Archaeological Research Society expedition there. So, it takes time, and it can also be part of the regulations that we are referring to. Likewise, it can be that those who are unable to travel back to the country, all of us, would be then perhaps obliged to turn into these types of activities, both for their own work and for their dissemination and sharing.
Yes, Cornelia.
[01:06:22] Cornelia Kleinitz’ input
Cornelia Kleinitz
Sorry, I wanted to do a “yes, but …”
I think for NCAM as an institution, if I may, but we're talking about sustainability, also. You know, long term archiving, long term data repositories and that's a huge task, but then what Sami was presenting, I mean that's fabulous. I mean all the servers and everything that gives you capacity to actually gather these data and host them in a proper way, but then when we're talking about Open Access and putting things online … I mean that's easily said, but how exactly do you do that? I mean, I'm just talking from having tried: Which platforms do you use that may have to do with your institution, which kind of opportunities you have. Again, you need to think about sustainability or the technicalities, the kind of words, the metadata, all those kinds of things. Because sticking things online is not the thing; making it usable is the thing.
And then also I want to ask Sami actually, because we're talking about Open Access. So, yeah? It's the best thing. You know, we should do that. But then as far as I know or as I'm being told, the Hinkel Archive is not Open Access because NCAM doesn't want that. So, when we're talking Open Access then is that actually something –
[Sami confirms Cornelia’s statement]
Exactly, that's what I'm asking you. When we're talking Open Access; what would be a good solution for you? Where do you think we should be going? Because for us, also institutionally. I mean Artur anyway with the ERC, I think you're going to have to make it publicly available, right? I mean it's part of the deal, no? To open the data?
Artur Obluski
Publication, yes. But I don't think there are any regulations regarding the documentation, but still I put it in my grant proposal and it's part of the agreement with the ERC, so I have to. But I put it there by purpose.
Cornelia Kleinitz
But the point is, are they your data to put out or shouldn't NCAM make the decision of which data are going to be publicly available because they're on the archaeology of Sudan? And if you have location data and things like that included, it may not be the best idea. So, then the directives of how that should be done would have to come from NCAM who by definition, should be the… the place where people in good jobs and with good positions at NCAM, and that responsibility, can maybe be in consultation with others, but decide on guidelines on what should be put on Open Access online, how those … how archaeological data on Sudan should be available.
Alexandros Tsakos
Thank you. The question is primarily addressed to Sami. So, I would like first to give the word to Sami, then Mohammed Faroug raised his hand, and then Artur is moving his finger.
[01:09:10] Sami Elamin’s input
Sami Elamin
Tamam. Yeah. Regarding the archive of Hinkel, which is public, which is online now as you all know. There was agreement signed between NCAM and the German Institute of Archaeology about the accessibility of the archive itself. I mean, we all know all the threats that we have in Sudan now. Actually, in so many places, before the breakout of the war in April 15, this problem of gold mining everywhere in Sudan, especially in the desert places and the place where we don't have real control of the sites, and so on.
So, there was agreement between NCAM and the DAI about, we all know that, like most of the people who will be interested in the archival material archaeology are archaeologists, and specifically archaeologists who work in Sudan, and probably in Egypt as well, maybe a minor group from outside of this range. So the … the … the … now, if someone asks NCAM to give them data from Hinkel archive; we call the German Institute of Archaeology and in all the cases till now we’ve given the data. The same way around: If someone asked German Institute of Archaeology for some data from Hinkel Archive, they send a note to NCAM, and then NCAM agrees or not.
I mean, this is for now. Because we know that like … as … as … other archives, there are so many things that are not yet published, so we can't just make it open for … for everyone. And the other thing that we were thinking together, I mean, for … we were not thinking to … to make our archive, our database online now, because it's still offline while it's still under process and … and design, and so on.
The idea is to give access to people who are interested to, but different degrees of accessibility to different types of people, like people who are working in the archive they can have permanent accessibility. But still, in their accessibility, some people only have the right to enter data; not to edit data, or to delete data or download data. Some people have the right to do everything. It's just like that. So we have to think about different degrees of accessibility to the data. But of course, if everything is published, we still have the threat of the looting, especially as Conny mentioned, if there are location, coordinates and so. In Sudan we have this big problem of gold mining. So, people are now looking for things on the Internet as well. This is really very, very dangerous. We have some different cases, I was an eyewitness of two or three of them at least, like people came from Egypt looking for a specific place mentioned on the Internet or something like that with coordinates and so, or from other places. There are some Sudanese people are becoming so … so … I would say … they are looking on the Internet and they have different devices and so.
So I'll always keep saying open accessibility, even if all of the archives published is a big threat for our activities as a heritage. It's just my personal opinion, but …
Alexandros Tsakos
Thank you, Sami. Definitely, clearance of access to the archives of different sorts must be examined for each case. I don't believe that it is exactly the same thing, like, discussing Open Access of other types of archival material than those that archaeologists are dealing with.
But, I see that our time flies and I already have the comment from Mohammed Faroug, from Artur, and from Henriette. So please if you could make it in this sequence and short so we can pass on to the second topic.
[01:13:00] Mohammed Faroug’s input
Mohammed Faroug
Me first? OK, I'm going to make it very short. My concern here is about the Archaeological archive from previous archaeological work in Sudan. Ok? I don't mean by Open Access, like open for public or anybody. That's not what I mean by Open Access. I disagree with that. It shouldn’t be open for everybody. But we're talking about stakeholders like the locals surrounding the archaeological sites, the missions, the antiquity service, and other researchers also who are interested in some of the materials of your work in certain archaeological sites. So ... And here I am talking about unstudied materials that the archive that you get from the field, all your documentation from there, notes and reports, and so on. That's the data. Then you have your preliminary report, your analysis, and so on, that's a different kind of data. Then you have also your final publication that's different issue, you have to finish your publication. The thing is that in Sudan we don't have a deadline permission in order to publish something. So it's open. That's a big problem for Sudan archaeology since we cannot ask you as an archaeologist to do that. We don't have a section for all that when you sign a concession agreement; there is no time frame for your work there. We just keep asking “please, publish”, or something like that. We're begging, as people who are begging to ... So that it has to be that you should have to … I'm not talking about foreign missions. All missions, including Sudanese. And the Sudanese mission is worse than the others, by the way. I know that the foreign missions usually have grants, and they work really very hard to publish and so on. We have issues in Sudan too. They examine a lot of our archaeology sites but most of them don't publish their final results.
The problem I'm talking about here is the time frame. Sorry, Alex, it's just that you have to have a regulation about that. Once you have that, even if it's not open online, even if it's stored only in the antiquities’ service, in order to save that archive, they have a time frame and deadline for the preliminary report, your analysis time frame, and your final publication, and of course there must be extensions and excuses for late submission due to some reason, like funding and so on.
That’s what I mean, I don't want to go further with that, but if you want I can …
Alexandros Tsakos
Point taken. Artur, shorter than that?
[01:15:55] Artur Obluski’s input
Artur Obluski
Absolutely. Actually, you touched upon my “yes, but … “, too, or Conny’s “yes, but …”. I think we are talking about various types of data. I think in case of a site as Dongola al -ajuz, you should make available each and every piece of documentation. In terms of surveys; maybe, If it's sensitive information? But I'm sure that it's still spreading out, despite the fact that it should be locked down somewhere.
One last sentence. Talking from my 17 years of experience in public administration. When we open the door to limit access to information, to public information, it will get larger and larger, each and every administration, regardless the country, will start to lock this information for itself. This is how things work, unfortunately.
Alexandros Tsakos
Thank you, Artur. Also for bringing in this sort of experience. Henriette.
[01:17:07] Henriette Hafsaas
Henriette Hafsaas
Yes, I definitely think that there should be some assessment of which data becomes “how” available open on the net or in the institutions. For instance, of my own material, I have a lot of photos of the local people, for instance. And I think it's problematic to put it out openly, because I have not asked them for their permission. So, this is something that needs to be assessed for each type of data that we do have, and I’m absolutely aware of the risk for looting, but I think many of these places are perhaps already very well known; you don't need to find the location of the pyramids, for instance … So you need assessment for each data how open it should be.
[01:28:31] Alexandros Tsakos
The GDPR is a very good point, Henriette. Thank you very much and thank you also for letting me cut down in the time that I would need in order to make the pass from the first topic to the second. Because you mentioned the looting and I guess that if it was difficult in the previous days after April, it must have become hell!
I hope I'm wrong, but it's only you who can tell us Sami. So, what's happening? You can share your screen again.
[01:18:31] Impacts of war: archaeological sites and museums
Sami Elamin
OK, this is a previous presentation I did about Meroe Land. But just to start with the situation in the northern state after the war in Sudan. As you may … you may all know that the war, or the first week of the war started here in the north in Merowe locality on the other side of the Nile, just in the middle of where we have five World Heritage sites, the Napatan … the Napatan region with different sites.
I would say when the war started in Merowe, in terms of heritage and archaeological sites, there was no any kind of direct damage or so, but only some remains of the war in Tangazi site, the post Meroitic tumulus, a lot of bodies were scattered there after the war. And then the war shifted to Khartoum. And since the war started in Khartoum, so, the northern state, antiquities, or sites, we can consider them negatively impacted by the war, not directly, but what we can say an indirect impact of the war, for two or three reasons.
So, the first reason: After the first week or the fifth week of the war, a lot of people fled from Khartoum to the north and I'm here talking about … specifically about Merowe locality, where we have most of the sites. The main cities are Karima and Merowe, and the other neighboring villages on both sides of the Nile. So, according to statistics, I took from the Red Crescent here in Karima, the coordinator of the Red Crescent in Karima, so, since the war started, more than 60,000 people came to the province of Merowe. This is what they could calculate it till now, actually they said that we didn't finish the statistics yet. So, I expect the number can jump up to 80,000 or something like that, according to the … to what I see from the visitors on the sites as well.
So, and, of course this affected negatively the archaeology sites and museums as well. So, first of all, for example, Jebel Barkal is the most visited site since the past time, even before the war. We receive hundreds of visitors every day in the afternoon actually, and during the weekend, especially Friday and Saturday, the number is really huge, and due to that we were able to hire more temporary guards. Up to five, one for the museum and four on the site, just to keep the people away from the … from the monuments. And stops them from scratching the sandstone blocks and stop them from climbing the pyramids, and so many other negative behaviors, the rubbish as well. And now we have a very big weekly market, just like the flee market in Berlin, Conny. Today is the week on Friday and Saturday, especially Friday. So, the area to the South of the mountain, from the sand dune area down to the Amun temple is a big market for everything you can imagine; food, drinks, clothes, and maybe aragi and bango as well – you have no idea.
So, the site is really very negatively affected by this, and now we are trying to protect the site as much as we can. We applied for funds, for specific purposes, like for example to complete the cement pillars around the core zone of the site to stop vehicles accessing the site, because we have … I can show you ... a photo. So, this is like a normal … a normal afternoon visitors. The area of Amun temple. So, this is … this is … like this is the most shortcut to the other side of the … of the mountain. People coming from Karima, people coming from Barkal Tahat, and during Fridays people come from too far, from Arak and some people come from old Dongola in car as well. On Fridays.
OK, so you can see this is a normal afternoon. This is not a Friday. You can see the amount of the cars accessing and driving through the site, even the heavy trucks as well. And this is one of Friday afternoons. It's just one part of the site, as well.
I know the same happened in the monumental sites like in Nuri, as well, because we have the pyramids, and in El-Kurru, we have the only remaining pyramids as well. So, it’s the same; I go every week to monitor the site there and to take some photographs with my colleague Ahmed el Sokari or Mohamed Ahmed Abas, and we have the same problem with big amount of visitors on the sites, but in Barkal it is very exceptional because … So, people come … It's quite funny … but if we say that like there are 100 people come to the site every day, you will find two or three persons of these visitors who are interested in archaeology and antiquities. The rest of the of the people, they just want to cross the site and climb the mountain from the sun part and then towards the sunset. And sometimes they stay on the top of the mountain till 8 o’clock PM or something like that until the tourism police go and bring them down.
So, one of the things what we could learn now from our joint project with Michigan University, our colleague Geoff Emberling and Suzanne, our project at Jebel Barkal. I designed community engagement plans or work together with my colleague Ahmed el Sokari and other partners from University of Karima, Department of Archaeology, and partners from the local community, as well. The idea is to turn this negative impact; the visitors, because we really want the site to be visited, into a positive thing.
So, we want to get the local people and the new people from … from Khartoum with so many cultural activities and events will be taking place in the site itself and we will reach the people in their places as well in the … in the neighboring villages and in the close places as well. So, this is, like, now more or less budgeted, it is already more or less approved. Now we just need to design our work program, as well. We may contact you all guys to help and assist with ideas and plans and so. This is for Barkal and the World Heritage sites.
Also, other sites are negatively affected by the people who fled the war in Khartoum. We have the case of Old Dongola. Artur, the Cathedral. So first, the first problem is the expansion of the agricultural farms towards the site, and also the expansion of the building work. Because most of the people who came from Khartoum, they were staying with some relatives or some friends or so. Now it seems like the war it’s still going on and it will not last for now, if even it lasts for now, people can go back to Khartoum because Khartoum is not a good place to live now. Houses were destroyed, luggage and furniture were looted, and everything is messed up now. So, a lot of people decided to build houses in their villages or where they have a piece of land or something like that. This has become a problem for so many archaeological sites core zones. Because before, like in so many places, the Antiquities service has stopped people from doing agricultural expansion and from doing building work as well. And now people are angry because they want to build houses, because they don't have houses in Khartoum. And the administration, and the law, and the police is very fragile nowadays, so people now really want to do everything.
Three weeks ago, I stopped some people where … they were digging to build infrastructure for a petrol station in the area, just to the West of Barkal pyramids, like 100 meter after the asphalt road. So, and the … the locality and the local people are very corrupted here in the area. And I think these problems we have, we had these problems before, but it wasn't that clear and that strong and we were able to resist and to stop all the kind-of attacks on the archaeology sites and so on. But now we have a very fragile administrative system in the whole Sudan, actually. The power of the police and the law is not really very strong, as well. NCAM administration itself is structured in Cairo, in so many places in Sudan, and other places as well. So, we are really in a very critical position, and we are trying as much as we can to keep things going.
We have another serious problem in Sai Island. This issue of gold mining. The problem started a couple of years ago and there were so many meetings with NCAM. After more people come to Sai Island from Khartoum, they want to survive by doing gold mining. We had a meeting with them four weeks ago and they made it very clear: “we don't want to touch the archaeology sites, we just want to look for gold. Please, define the core or the boundaries of your archaeological site and we will never touch them.” They were very clear.
So, and in terms of stopping them from doing this, of course it is a pity to have this kind of activities in Sai Island because the whole island as a nature and archaeological monument is an amazing place, but we can't say “no” to them. And we can't stop them by law now. Otherwise, it's gonna be more dangerous for the sites. Now we will look together with the local partner there, Sai island and the French Mission SFDAS, we try to define the boundaries of the sites, and so to keep the danger away from the sites. I mean, you can copy this kind of problems, or what I say, in all the sites in the northern state, in both sides of the Nile.
In terms of museums: In my … Under my administration I have three museums; I have Barkal museum, I have Merowe Land Museum, and I have Kerma Museum as well.
So far for Barkal and Kerma museum, the situation is stable, but still with the possibility of looting and people who came from different places with different concepts, and the fragile security and guard-system we have. It’s kind of … I did some change in Barkal here, just to keep things in a better condition and safe as well.
One of the problems we have, like Merowe Land Museum. This museum is located in a touristic village or a touristic resort in Merowe city, and it was constructed and opened in 2009 with the opening of the Fourth … of the dam in the Fourth Cataract, as part of the Unit Implementation and the collaboration between NCAM and […] that time. So, this museum was built by them and then our colleague from NCAM 2009, they did the selection of subjects, the display, and so. I would say it's really a very nice museum and a good one. I remember I visited the museum so many times as an archaeologist and with restorers and so, it was really attractive and good, the display is very varied and very well selected, there are some good masterpieces, and some folklore exhibition there, as well.
So since four or five years, so, this place was sent to be an Army base, and we all know about the story of the collaboration between the Sudanese and the Egyptian army. And there was some Egyptian soldiers living in that place. Since four years the museum was closed. It wouldn’t open at all.
So, in … in … in May, one of the police tourist who guard the museums there, he called me and he said that the building itself is collapsing and you should come and see what's going on with the object inside. So, I went with some colleagues from Barkal office here, and we did just an outside visit and documentation. Of course, the building is fractioned and there is a serious threat of flood, because it's very close to the to the river Nile; and looting as well. So, we came back two weeks later with … with a big committee from the people from NCAM, from the Conservation Museum and the … and the Antiquities Department. We opened the museum. The situation of the objects was OK, but there was collapse from the … from the … from the roof. And as I said, we have this threat of flooding, as well. So, the whole building is not really stable, so the roof moved from the walls around the building, and it may collapse if the flood come in, and so. So, we decided to evacuate the museum and our budget now is raising for to bring the objects from Merowe to Jebel al Barkal museum. We are preparing years ago.
Kerma Museum is closed, but still the security measurements there and everything is not good as the problem in Kerma Museum and Meroe Museum both, there is no any kind of cataloging. There is no any kind of database. For Barkal, from 2016 I started the object registration and together with Mortada Bushara and other colleague, we did like 80% of the display and the objects in the store room. Also, museums need to turn our attention in terms of enforcing security and guarding, and upgrade the display and so.
I think this, well, was all I can say in this minute, Sir.
Alexandros Tsakos
Thank you very much, Sami. If you can unshare your screen, please?
Moving of people affected by war is something to be expected … and how to be tackled of course, both in terms of the flooding of sites with the, let's call them careless visitors, is, or … because of the necessity to build accommodation for these people in the hosting areas, the new hosting areas, is quite difficult to grasp from outside, and I guess both that and the … and the expansion of the agricultural fields, needs, as you said, the control that definitely the current state infrastructure does not allow us to have many hopes for.
So, I don't know whether Mohammed Faroug, Artur or Cornelia have any news from their own field work and communication with locals at sites like Musawwarat or Old Dongola. I don't even know whether this would add to the picture, but please, if someone wants to say something on ...
Yes, please, Artur.
Artur Obluski
I mean … I think we have the same situation as Sami, because ... So, first of all, there is an agricultural expansion happening right now at Old Dongola, but I wouldn't connect it with the war itself because it is happening all the time and I think Old Dongola is not the only site that is … that is … that has this threat, right?
Together with NCAM we considered fencing the site, but I also … I think that it doesn't make a lot of sense because fencing will not help. People will plant their plants behind the fence probably, and it will only destroy the landscape. So, in my opinion the only solution there is it's building fences in people brains … in people minds, OK? So, it means that all the expeditions and NCAM should work together with local communities … to … to show them the importance of the archaeological sites and heritage at hand. And the other thing is: If we are able to show to the local communities that there are other possibilities of benefiting from the site than having a field over the antiquities, they will certainly do that.
But … this is kind of a call for trying to spare on economic development based on World Heritage in Sudan. Of course, I mean, war is a terrible situation and there is nothing we can do now, but I think … I think that we should go in this direction. So first: building fences in people’s minds and trying to do as much as we can, so the local communities can benefit economically from the world heritage that they have just in the in the neighborhood. There was also some flooding, there were torrential rains twice in Dongola. So … I have the updated information, fortunately, the most photos that I got are photos of the damages that have been done in the past. There are two or three holes in the … in the roof … in the monastery on Kom H, but fortunately in the places that doesn't threaten the wall paintings or structure of the monastery itself. But we will together with Sami or Abdel Majid, we are going to do some things in terms of protection.
Yes. So maybe this is all for now and then we will talk.
Alexandros Tsakos
Yes, thank you, Artur. Cornelia, you wanted to say something?
Cornelia Kleinitz
Yeah, just very briefly on Musawwarat. I mean, the community there is a pastoralist community with no impact on the landscape, basically. And they're protecting the site by being there, by guarding the site. Even though now nobody is paid, because the structure of … of … the state structure has collapsed to that extent. But they're not the problem. We need them to be there. The problem is it's an indirect effect of the war, for example, that you can't buy units to buy water from the deep well, so you need to buy electricity to run the deep wells, which they need because there's no other water there. So … then, you have to find ways of accessing electricity to actually be able to physically live in this hinterland area.
And what happened to the site, or the dangers … the big dangers to the site, actually happened before the war started, but I think it's a development that led up to a situation that we have now. Because I was in Sudan in April, we were working at the time when the war started, because somebody very high up in the military had decided to put a huge field boundary of like 800 meters by 800 meters, just outside the buffer zone of the site, but which was threatening to reroute a big Wadi into the Wadi es-Sufra and into the site of Musawwarat. We were there to actually check if we could do anything. That person was stopped in the end, but only after the project was nearly finished. So, the field never started working, up until now. But … and they wanted to bring the electricity from the guesthouse in Musawwarat across the core zone of the World Heritage Site to that field.
So, this kind of situation where somebody in the state structure of Sudan can put, you know – not asking the local people and those kinds of things – has the power – and the money, interestingly also – to do these big development projects. Also into pastoralist lands which are “empty”, but of course they aren't. So, there is a lot socially going on in terms of power structures that are actually threatening directly the archaeological sites, or indirectly by threatening local communities who are protecting the sites, in our case as pastoralists. Yeah?
So that would be my perspective that our problem was … actually started much earlier by there being very little reliable laws and things and … that we could rely on in terms of protecting the archaeological sites. And NCAM staff were fighting, and fighting, and fighting, and going to lawsuits and things like that to protect their archaeological sites. So, there are big problems already that are accelerated now by the situation.
Alexandros Tsakos
How do you see all that Mohammed Faroug from outside? I mean, you have both family and colleagues and your own field work back in Sudan. What do you hear?
Mohammed Faroug
I mean, we know the lack of government there … security and everything there. It's just about the people, the locals there; they deal with each other. So, protecting an archaeological site there at this moment, I think not only archaeological site, but cultural heritage in general, I think it's not only the employees of the cultural authority or institutions in Sudan responsibility, but also there should be the public too.
As for me, from what I've heard from people there, is that everything is at high risk in Sudan, by the way. There's no government and people deal with this, like, in a friendly way to protect the archaeological site. And I would say even in … probably some places like, probably … of course, because people don't get the salaries and they don't get compensation for their work there in Sudan, how ... I can’t imagine how people are going to protect these archaeological sites in Sudan there. I see it like it's at high risk, that's all what I can see from that.
I've heard also some … from Mahmoud, that there are some archaeological … that people dug out some archaeological sites there. Very important archaeological sites there. And I think they also stole … they looted some of the offices, I think, or the magazine at Meroe there. And I think the resthouse there?
Sami clarifies:
Hinkel camp! Hinkel camp in Meroe, Bejjarawia.
Mohammed Faroug
Yeah. So this is something, that are one of the examples, I think, that they dug out somewhere. They dug out one of the archaeological site there, are one or two, I think. There is an expansion of settlement, there are some places there too. And … because of the conflict in Sudan, there's just … like Conny said, that it is an indirect impact on these states too. And therefore, I think, there is this increasing … by the way, it's not like it's gonna … it’s gonna decrease soon here in Sudan, it's not going to happen soon. We understand from this warfare that usually … something like it's either doesn't break out into a civil war, it's gonna be probably the entire country … we hope that is not gonna happen, but if it happened then It's going to be a big chaos in Sudan, by the way.
But really the risk is going very high. These people have taken very high risk, like Sami, and Mahmoud, and those who are in Sudan now, in order to protect that archaeological site and if we don’t support them somehow, from the international organization and the missions and so on… Soon we're going to lose a lot of these archaeological sites and museums, and so on…
Alexandros Tsakos
I guess I guess … no, I'm sorry.
Mohammed Farooug
No, go ahead.
Alexandros Tsakos
Well, I guess this was the $1 million question, Mohammed Faroug. How are we going to support Sami and the others who are in the country?
I mean, Artur says that his contacts in Old Dongola together with Sami are going to try to do this or that. Try it... Sami was saying that if there is support, an evacuation of some sort is going to take place from museums.
If people are not getting paid, if money cannot come in the country, if traveling is not possible, how do you create safe zones for traveling along the Nile and creating overviews of the situation, proposing solutions and then channeling these methods of solution to the Nile?
So this is an open question to anybody who would like to … But if Henriette has her hand up, I would like to give her the word because she's the one who didn't have an intervention on that round until now, Mohammed Faroug, and we're getting back to you. Thank you.
Mohammed Faroug
OK. OK. OK.
Henriette Hafsaas
Well, I just want to say what Sami and the others on the ground in Sudan is doing is admirable, but I totally agree that it has a high risk, so, I wouldn't expect for anyone to take this risk now, as the situation is very grave, with the war, and you know you can risk your life. And this brings us perhaps a bit back to the start with the importance of documenting what we are doing as archaeologists and to keep this in archives and to have it organized so we can access the information et cetera. Because then the objects in the museums, of course they are valuable, but not like human lives. But then we have the records, and we can still use the information even if we might lose the … the objects.
Alexandros Tsakos
Thank you. What did you want to say Mohammed Faroug?
Mohammed Faroug
Oh, I … thank you, Henriette, for that comment. Yeah, this is right. Their life, they're not going to … they're not supposed to put their life at risk in order to protect the archaeological site or the museums. So, I agree with you on that, but at this moment there is still room for safety to move around, not to move away from their places, but there is sometimes … I mean, we still have sometimes, in order to save or make up a plan, in order to protect these museums, objects and so on.
So, Sami, for example, what he was talking about just now the Merowe Museum, it is the right time to move the object? It's safe to move around this area. But not for Khartoum or somewhere else, there's no way to do anything about archaeology site or museums in Khartoum there, so this is … we don't know anything about it. We don't know what's happening there at this moment, but it's possible also to focus on other regions like … the Northern state, Eastern state, all over Sudan where we don't have that conflict. So, the archaeologists, or those who work in cultural heritage, can move around.
But this is not gonna happen without really backed … backed by really good funding and resources … Because now the government, the people in Sudan, the government police haven’t been paid for almost four months since April, I think. That's only for salaries, not for doing … no support for projects or something like that. So, I would say this is one thing: that people, we need to work together on, probably with international organization, local international organization in order to support this project there. They have projects. Sami have submitted, probably several projects. Mahmoud on that site, some other people probably ... This is … just as far as I know, they've been submitting a proposal to do this work before … You don't know if a war is going to break out and something like that, which is good. I mean, they've been doing very well so far, but the responses to this calling is really very slow. Very slow. And … I would say we probably need more effort in order to recruit other organizational, we would be inquiring these international organizations … institutions in order to support their work there in Sudan, because this is the only hope we have. People like Sami and Mahmoud probably, in Kerma or Abdel Mahid, or so on.
Alexandros Tsakos
It definitely brings to memory how I opened this session, but it's not me who's going to react to … upon that. First is Artur, and then it's Henriette.
Artur Obluski
Thanks a lot, Alex. So, first of all, I would also join Henriette to thank Sami and all the people on the ground. They're doing a terrific job, but please don't risk your lives. We need you after the conflict.
So … this is my appeal, because we dealt with such situation in Egypt during the revolution there. And some site guards in this case were killed in Middle Egypt, because they didn't want to allow looters to enter one of the storerooms. So please, save your lives and your families, don't save antiquities.
I would like to quickly … quickly address what Mohammed Faroug said; that the response is slow. There are several reasons why international response is slow. First, it’s cruel, but it was vacations and unfortunately … yes … it's something that I couldn't understand, but I’m on … I think it's UNESCO committee for crisis situations in Sudan and there was no meeting over August. And there are several other dynamics why this … why this answer is slow and could be very limited. One of the reasons is that there is a problem; how we can send money into Sudan?
And I know that there were some channels that were used by Aliph Foundation to support some NCAM representatives, but it may not work for each and every institution. For instance, the University of Warsaw cannot send money to … I don't know, to a private account or a private entity account. Ok? So, the only way we can provide some help is through official channels. And … and I think this is the major threat to what is happening. The other thing is that I think that most of the “big fish” is waiting what is going really to happen in Sudan in terms of politics. So, who is going to win? Actually. And this is also the reason for hesitation.
But I want to also answer Alexandros' open question: how to deal with this situation? The answer is very simple: It's improvise. And I think that if there is any other nation better in improvising than Polish, it’s Sudanese. Because look at how they dealt with the … with all the situation that has been happening, you know not only for the last three months, it is been happening for at least several tens of years. That they are fighting for … I mean, they are fighting for each and every day to survive, each and every day in terms of economy and society and so on. So, I think improvisation is one thing and you guys are doing great, but this improvisation needs to be helped by … from abroad.
So, I think we should find a way to get money into Sudan one way or the other. Maybe we can even send it to some public institutions in Cairo and then get it over the border, and transport the, you know, real cash, which will be extremely dangerous, and I'm sure it will be a topic for several good movies, but this is how we’ll probably have to do it. Or at least, get it over the border and then send it by Bankak. Use … I don't know if there are any banks where working in …
Wait a second, Alexandros.
The most important thing for me: In my opinion, improvisation … should also … You guys need also the Civic Society of Sudan to help you. This is how it worked in Poland for 40 years under the Communist regime, guys. You are … Then under the occupation, we even built an underground army, ok? But you need to talk more to the Civic Society, and I know that there are a lot of people in Sudan for whom the heritage, outside NCAM, for whom heritage is a very important thing. So, I think you can also count on their help, and it would be great to see how you guys are going to include them … to … kind of, you know, widen the base of the people involved in the heritage.
Because even before the war, there were not enough workers … People hired, sorry, in NCAM to protect all the sites. I think there should be several thousand people hired, and it's only about 300. Look how vast Sudan is, how many sites there are. So, I think the only way is to get involved, and get engaged with the local communities and Civic Society.
So, in terms of improvisation – this is the very last thing – we are improvising in Old Dongola and we were lucky enough that … because we offered our house at Old Dongola to one … to a family of the NCAM employees. And it turned out that one of the persons who is staying in our house is an engineer. So, he will help to assess and also address the issues that we have after the torrential rains.
Thank you.
Alexandros Tsakos
A good example of chance and improvisation. Civic societies’ support is a sine qua non. Other crises around the world have shown the rightness of what you say. Perhaps it's not enough, but nevertheless it's impossible to address the whole matter now. We are already on overtime. But Henriette please have the comment you wanted to have.
Henriette Hafsaas
It was really quite similar to what Artur was asking. So it's simply: how can we support? So maybe Sami wants to finish off with that for you.
Alexandros Tsakos
Definitely, thank you for suggesting that. This was my plan, that we would return to Sami for the last word, but I would hate it if I didn't, at least for a minute, give the opportunity to those who are here to say something or to ask something. Our friends are here or there.
Howaida Faisal
Thank you so much for the panelist. It's really interesting to hear all the jobs that is doing and thank you to those in Sudan. Thank you so much. I'm Howaida. I'm Sudanese myself. I’m based in Bergen.
Yeah, just one thing about sending money. Because we all have been sending money to our families, but we here in Europe, we have … If Bankak is a solution, then there is an application called Altras. I can send information to Alex and others. It's very easy to download it and then you can send money using Bankak or Fawry for the Faisal Islamic Bank.
So this helped me a lot. This is one of the things that is positive for me about being here and trying to help my family, and this is the only way to send money to Sudan. And I think in Dongola you can receive money in cash, as well.
Alexandros Tsakos
Thank you, Howaida. I hope that it is noted that in any case I can forward it to those who have a larger network than mine, so as that the information should spread as it should.
Cornelia Kleinitz
It's really relevant, Howaida. The problem is that the money, the public money, we’re not allowed to send through the channels that exist. So, we know about, this would be perfect to use, but unfortunately in the kinds of funding we have, we have to go through specific types of transfer and they don't exist right now for Sudan and actually haven't existed for a while. This is for institutions a real problem.
[02:13:55] Howaida Faisal
Yeah, I understand that, but I'm not quite sure I have … I’m not so much familiar with all the systems, but maybe Mansur and [name] here, maybe they know the system better than me or the people on the screen. Some of the institutions also have this Bankak, right? I'm not quite sure …
Munzoul Assal
No, not really. Not really.
I think this … I agree with you, because individually this is working and Western Union is also working, but for institutions it's difficult. I am colleague in a project, and we are having serious problems in getting money to Sudan, at least for now.
Howaida Faisal
OK, then, yeah.
Alexandros Tsakos
Thank you. Let us consider that there is another event taking place right afterwards here and we are overtime, but the appropriate thing would be to give the word back to some in order to make any concluding remark.
Sami Elamin
Oh, thank you very much, guys. Well, as Mohammed Faroug mentioned and Artur as well, like … we are trying to resist what's going on. Me and other colleagues, who exist on the ground, on sites, as much as … as we can. And so far, I think we are doing well actually.
With the project we submitted, me and Mahmoud and other colleague from Sennar, and other places and so, if we manage to get the funding for that, I think we can do a lot.
We still have problem of human resources, because people are very … small in number … few in number and the work is very much more than … than our abilities in terms of physical moving, and people who are skilled, and can … can deal in the English language, and can use computer for so many software and from various places. So, at the very end, it turned out, and it came back to people who can really deal with computers are everything. Like for instance, here, I'm the only one with my colleague, Ahmed el Sokari, who can design a budget or something like that. Or who can design or justificate a project. And we are only two persons.
And this is really a major problem, but once we have the funds there is a possibility to hire people even from out of NCAM staff. So, we would hire from the local community and people who fled the war in Khartoum. There are so many people like the engineer you were talking about, Artur. Mahmoud el Tayeb told me about.
And we have partners from universities, as well around and other places. I'd like just to assure you that till our last breath, we will resist, and we'll try to do our best. And at the end we're doing something we love to do, actually. And thanks a lot for your concern and for your contribution in the different ways. Love to see you again.
Alexandros Tsakos
Thank you so much, Sami. Please, stay safe and keep strong, and … all of you there and here. Keep it up; talking; being concerned, and participating and contributing with research and civic action.
Thank you so much.
[02:16:46] End of panel